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Che Guevara

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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  alpa_chino » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:56 am

Russia won the second war almost alone and it always surprises me how Americans took the credit
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  rmcoo » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:41 am

  27 Feb 2015, 07:56 GMT » alpa_chino wrote:
Russia won the second war almost alone and it always surprises me how Americans took the credit

And by winning that war, they isolated 10countries from the world.
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  teutonic_tanks » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:30 pm

  27 Feb 2015, 00:39 GMT » Genette wrote:
Godwin's Law confirmed.


lol so true
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  JCDenton » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:42 pm

Russia conveniently forgets the Molotov-Ribbentrop non aggression pact they had with Germany. The fact that Stalin emerges with any 'credit' whatsoever is astounding. The immense casualties that USSR took following Germany's cancellation of the non aggression pact (some 4-5 million dead and 3-4m PoWs) in six months alone - unprepared for this betrayal such was Stalin's commitment to the pact is testament to his approval of Germany stamping over the rest of Europe and carving the remainder with USSR. And the history books conveniently forget how absolutely barbaric the Soviets (and other sections of the Allied Forces) behaved in the immediate 'liberation' of Germany, Poland etc.

America profited nicely from Europe's war economy and was at one stage assisting both sides (hat tip, Chase Bank). They joined a couple of years too late, got a huge R&D boost in ensuring that German scientists 'disappeared' to work in their ballistics and rocketry labs and refused Churchill's requests to keep fighting to ensure that Central and Eastern Europe would not fall to the Soviets - the worst case being the treachery of the Allies in the Warsaw Massacre.

As for Britain - we were renowned as a nation of imperialists (Churchill included) and all the miseries that go along with it. We committed many atrocities in the years prior to the war (genocide, forced famines, operation of concentration camps...etc ad nauseam) and immediately before wartime there were many senior members of society who were very supportive of the Nazism (including our dear old Queen Mother). In truth I despise the way in which Britain is 'proud' of its war history and all the politically motivated pageantry that goes along with it - I would only prefer to commemorate. Like many other countries we fought, many people died but we held out...which is more than you can say for the French! (j/k..maybe)
Last edited by  JCDenton on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  welsheagle11 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:47 pm

  26 Feb 2015, 23:21 GMT » JCDenton wrote:
@MadMax,

Past crimes/deeds do form part of national identity. For Brits my age the narrative of the second world war is entrenched in our culture from the stories that are passed to down from grandparent to father to son. Hell - I live in a small village on the outskirts of London where we have our own Spitfire in trust and we finance its running costs - And that Spitfire means everything to our local identity!

Equally, on the darker side, even though myself and many people of my generation in my country marched against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - it still happened. Our then Labour Government killed between the best part of 500'000-1'000'00 people (in the name of 'liberty') depending on your source and that is something that informs our national character. One of the most astonishing things is that Tony Blair is is lauded pretty much everywhere else he goes in the world but in the UK - we would happily have him strung, drawn and quartered. The point still remains - anyone that is truly patriotic cannot run from their nation's past crimes. The passing of time helps but history still endures.

I must say that not all British citizens agree with most of this statement .
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  MadMax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:15 pm

  27 Feb 2015, 10:41 GMT » rmcoo wrote:
  27 Feb 2015, 07:56 GMT » alpa_chino wrote:
Russia won the second war almost alone and it always surprises me how Americans took the credit

And by winning that war, they isolated 10countries from the world.

And you now live with fear of it happening again and so you (your country) make prejudices which negatively affect your life(lives of people in your country).
That is the reason why should we learn from history, try to analyze why it happened, how it happened and so on... not just blindly follow facts you were told in school or some other place.
Someone says USSR won war and you only see isolating your country. Believe it or not it were soviets who were responsible for isolating countries and they also isolated Russians. Yes they are people too.
Anyway, any of this discussions about guilt is completely irrelevant. First, we can go back to history and find some black spots in history of every country. Secondly, Political realism refuses to identify the moral aspirations of a particular nation with the moral laws that govern the universe.It has been very well expressed in Hans Mortengau's (based on works of Machiavelli) 6 principles of political realism.
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  John the Late » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:15 pm

It's a good post JCDenton. Many atrocities of the war(s) tend to be deliberately forgotten.
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  JCDenton » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:01 pm

Cheers John - as they say ''history is written by the victors' so many truths are readily hidden.

@Max I think only a cursory look at how utterly useless the political leadership is in France, Germany and Britain in responding to the rise of aggressive anti-semitism shows that lessons haven't really been learnt at all. I'll bite my tongue at presuming what the realist interpretation might be but I imagine it may have something to do with the common ethnicity and religious inclination of a statistical majority of the perpetrators.
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  puma » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:47 am

se desvirtuo 3 veces... no en español no del che... y sin latinos jajajaja xD
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Re: Che Guevara

Postby  scotia_pict » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:44 am

Go youtube David Irving and find out some real and proper history about world war 2 and not the pack of lies we are told about history. The super rich Zionist Elitist family's behind the federal reserve bank, The bank of England and most other big private banks of the day were the engineers of the wars. It was wrote about and planned in 1871: http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm
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