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Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires re: tourney streaming

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Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires re: tourney streaming

Postby  patao » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:45 pm

X-posting myself here from reddit since I think this is more of an aoczone topic

Link to start of ~15 minute discussion during Talk of the Empires 3, ZeroEmpires/Nili/Memb

Transcription:
Nili starting to discuss how event organizers selling rights to broadcast tournaments could be a legitimate strategy to raise money for prize pools

ZeroEmpires: Just to break you off there, because I understand what you're about to say, but [aoe2 broadcasting] is not the same as [sports broadcasting] at all because nobody owns a sport. Nobody owns football, nobody owns rugby, nobody owns tennis, whatever. You can do what you like with those games because they're just a set of rules owned by everybody. The problem is, if you're trying to sell something, the rights to something, you have to own that thing and obviously VooblyOfficial doesn't own aoe2. That's where there could be an issue going forward if they try to go down this route.

Nili / Zero / Memb with a good discussion about the practical challenges of selling broadcast rights and how it could be difficult for streamers and players alike.

ZeroEmpires: Some people in the chat are making the parallel to FIFA, if FIFA organizes a football event, they can sell the broadcasting rights. That's true, but the point is, they don't own football, and somebody else can come along and do their own tournament and sell their own rights. But when you're doing that for aoe2, which is not owned by..., which is owned by somebody, it's very difficult to get around the - I guess - Game Content Usage Guidelines that are in place. But, anyway, what I wanted to say moving on...

Later in the stream he says something about this is why Escape is working directly with Microsoft, although I don't have time to find the clip again at the moment

My thoughts:
To be clear, I'm not sure that ZeroEmpires is wrong here, at least under US law he seems very likely to be right, as bizarre as that is to me (it's legal to sell rights to a Scrabble game but not a Smash Bros game? wtf).

The biggest concern to me is that he's both actively following this line of reasoning and his for-profit business is the only aoe2 org actively partnered with Microsoft. I just want to air publicly that if the rights holders go after streamers / tournament organizers on copyright infringement I am sooo done with aoe2. I sincerely hope ZeroEmpires was merely expressing the facts of the situation - which again, he seems (unfortunately IMO) very likely to be correct about - and would oppose such a thing were it to actually happen =)
Last edited by  patao on Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Disturbing thinking in Talk of the Empires - tournament

Postby  Idle Beaver » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:46 pm

Sounds like this is only relevant if a non-Microsoft party were selling broadcasting rights. Not simply if someone organises a tournament and someone else streams it. The streamer should just not have to pay for the right to stream it.
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Re: Disturbing thinking in Talk of the Empires - tournament

Postby  patao » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:56 pm

  17 Feb 2017, 17:46 GMT » Idle Beaver wrote:
Sounds like this is only relevant if a non-Microsoft party were selling broadcasting rights. Not simply if someone organises a tournament and someone else streams it. The streamer should just not have to pay for the right to stream it.


As far as I can tell, the selling is irrelevant. Twitch only exists because gaming companies let it (it's beneficial to them, obviously). Same with tournaments. So the line is completely arbitrary, although it sounds like ZeroEmpires is suggesting it should be drawn at selling rights to broadcasts.

Even if the copyright aspect makes sense to people (I'm surprised by it, but that's irrelevant), the suggestion that it may be enforced against non-Escape orgs going forward is worrisome.

Dallas attorney and Law of the Game blog author Mark Methenitis explained in an interview with Ars. "Under the public performance right, the copyright holder is allowed to say when, where, or whether something is publicly performed, meaning displayed in front of a group of people larger than, say, at your house."
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Re: Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires - MS owns all stre

Postby  Idle Beaver » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:04 pm

I guess, but yeah that is a problem for all gaming streams, and YouTube game channels too.
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Re: Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires - MS owns all stre

Postby BMAPC187 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:13 pm

nice drama post, making an issue out of none.
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Re: Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires - MS owns all stre

Postby  Noone » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:19 pm

  17 Feb 2017, 18:13 GMT » BMAPC187 wrote:
nice drama post, making an issue out of none.


+1
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Re: Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires - MS owns all stre

Postby  patao » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:06 pm

  17 Feb 2017, 18:19 GMT » Noone wrote:
  17 Feb 2017, 18:13 GMT » BMAPC187 wrote:
nice drama post, making an issue out of none.


+1


Is it? ZeroEmpires specifically said that's why they're working directly with Microsoft, and why he doesn't think VooblyOfficial is allowed to sell streaming rights. If it's a non-issue because it will never happen, that's actually reassuring, but apparently ZeroEmpires thinks it's a big enough problem that he wouldn't even let Nili propose it verbally :lol:
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Re: Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires - MS owns all stre

Postby  ZeroEmpires » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:56 pm

  17 Feb 2017, 19:06 GMT » patao wrote:
  17 Feb 2017, 18:19 GMT » Noone wrote:
  17 Feb 2017, 18:13 GMT » BMAPC187 wrote:
nice drama post, making an issue out of none.


+1


Is it? ZeroEmpires specifically said that's why they're working directly with Microsoft, and why he doesn't think VooblyOfficial is allowed to sell streaming rights. If it's a non-issue because it will never happen, that's actually reassuring, but apparently ZeroEmpires thinks it's a big enough problem that he wouldn't even let Nili propose it verbally :lol:



No, you're completely blowing up a casual discussion about the sale of broadcasting rights. It has nothing to do with "why they're directly working with Microsoft".
It was an open question from me as to whether or not selling streaming rights for AoE tournaments is kosher or not. It has nothing to do with any Microsoft stance on the issue and I would not be informed as to what their stance would be (if they cared at all); hence the question.

Just to clarify some more - I applied some logic and what little knowledge I have about this topic to the situation.
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Re: Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires re: tourney stream

Postby  Spring_ » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:50 pm

To me the football analogy is a good one but Zak understands it wrong from my perspective. For example, the NFL isn't selling football its selling the right to watch/stream their specific teams playing each other, same with fifa. Voobly and any other organization should be able to sell the rights to watch their sponsored teams in their sponsored event play each other, they are not however selling the right to stream/watch aoe2 as a whole.. two totally different things.

selling the rights to watch/broadcast events seems like a great idea as long as the teams are sponsored through the sales and not the community. If a sponsor sends money to any org (voobly, ESG) to create an event for the public, its designed to pay for the publics viewing not generate voobly/ESG money. So there would have to be different sets of rules based on how the even was created and sponsored.
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Re: Disturbing thought in Talk of Empires re: tourney stream

Postby  patao » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:07 pm

No, you're completely blowing up a casual discussion about the sale of broadcasting rights. It has nothing to do with "why they're directly working with Microsoft".
It was an open question from me as to whether or not selling streaming rights for AoE tournaments is kosher or not. It has nothing to do with any Microsoft stance on the issue and I would not be informed as to what their stance would be (if they cared at all); hence the question.

Just to clarify some more - I applied some logic and what little knowledge I have about this topic to the situation.


Cool, this is fair enough. This is indeed what I was hoping to be the case (below). You did say you wanted to touch on dangerous topics on the stream and you did :lol:

I sincerely hope ZeroEmpires was merely expressing the facts of the situation - which again, he seems (unfortunately IMO) very likely to be correct about


I think the part that made it sound very ominous was that you cut Nili off when he began to suggest it, implying you either thought it was completely illegal / out of bounds or that you were aware of a Microsoft position on it from dealing with them. When in fact from researching it's actually exactly* as far out of bounds any old stream that we see every day, Youtube vids of the games, etc. But in retrospect, from your statement, it seems that this was coming from a lack of knowledge and not from a position of business strategy.

Also I will recant this, I tried to find the quote in the video (incredibly long) and couldn't seem to find it, so I was apparently mistaken "ZeroEmpires specifically said that's why they're working directly with Microsoft". Apologies.

Not here to cause drama, just ensure everything is all good for aoe2 ;)

* This is what BMAP was referencing when he said "drama topic" I believe, and he's correct, it's nothing to worry about in that sense...it's the same situation we've always seen. It only sounds ominous in context.
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