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Imperial age: tips & secrets

Game tutorials, strategies, tips & tricks
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  TheCode » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:12 am

Very good article Christ.

I think the main point Christ emphasizes, as Fall explained a bit more, is not how you should always fight pure palas vs halbs, it is rather about the power of ultimate strong gold army built with a solid eco. When/if you can achieve that, pala vs halb cost effectivity issue becomes an irrelevant discussion, especially in a tg. As long as you build a strong gold army, you do win most of your fights, even if you lose some of them vs trash units, the damage is almost completely recoverable. You can always push and can dominate map control with solid armies, whereas with thrash units all you can do is win a few fights cost effectively, which pretty much means nothing most of the time for a decent post-imperial game. The main message there I think that some of the time, of course not in very high level games, RMers tend to avoid such fights just to be cost effective, eventhough the fight would allow them to have a strong gain in many other perspectives. It is also understandable that what is suggested is a debatable issue and can be hard to implement or judge how to be used and requires alot of practice to be perfectly employed. Even in the DM, where post imperial is all that there is, it was after many years of AOC, this strategy evolved to be one of the finest and most decent one by the contribution of many players.

For the 80 farms issue, I am not very experienced in early-imp RM, but from DM point of view, this strategy can also have a lot of effect in 1vs1 late-post imperial games. We have experienced, more than enough, that for those civs that can create cheap gold units, it is most of the time effective to use them instead of thrash units. For example, in a viking, celt, teuton etc 1v1s, where gold is finished, you can mass berserkers, woad raiders or TKs of 60-70 by selling food, instead of 120-130 trash units of sc,halb and skirm.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  SiFly » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:27 am

Keep it coming. I love how RM and DM scene try to improve each other meta with these kind ofknowledge.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  go_full_petard » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:49 am

What people need to take into account is that the limited population space(200) is the parameter that makes the paladin spam so strong.

Let's say you have 130 eco units which allows you to constantly have 70 paladins and be pop capped. You need at least twice as many halbs to fight that army(unless Japanese halbs) and win comfortably. Then you need 140 halbs. 2 halbs cost a little bit less than 1 paladin. This means that to constantly have 140 halbs, you also need 120-130 eco units. But you can only have 60, because your halbs are taking up 140 pop spaces! So let's say you find a middle road, with around 90 vills and constantly 110 halbs. Sure, but halbs are useless for any other task than killing cavalry.

Now, if we instead play matches with 300 or 500 pop cap, you might think the "issue" will disappear, since you can have more halbs. Not so. The other player can have more paladins too and the paladin spam will eventually become as strong, but it will take a much longer time before you have a large enough economy to support it.

Now, if we remember the time when RTS games were popular, the games which came after AoC such as AoM, Empire Earth and AoE3 all had different pop costs for stronger units. If I remember correctly, the Paladin equivalent from AoE3(french unique cav) take up 3 pop spaces. So this was obviously an "issue" the game designers were aware of, and they found a way to balance it.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  Carlos Ferdinand » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:08 pm

Nobody is ignoring pop considerations atleast not me. The lesser the eco you have for palas (such as a 90 pala rest vils type of eco) the more difficult will replacing palas be. And the more will fights start becoming limited by cost rather than pop. Sure you win the first 2-3 fights but progressively that advantage swings to halbs.

And to those suggesting you need 2x halbs to counter palas that is clearly not the case. Halbs are also very space efficient in same numbers due to smaller size compared to pala.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  TheCode » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:25 pm

  24 Sep 2015, 11:08 GMT » Carlos Ferdinand wrote:
Nobody is ignoring pop considerations atleast not me. The lesser the eco you have for palas (such as a 90 pala rest vils type of eco) the more difficult will replacing palas be. And the more will fights start becoming limited by cost rather than pop. Sure you win the first 2-3 fights but progressively that advantage swings to halbs.

And to those suggesting you need 2x halbs to counter palas that is clearly not the case. Halbs are also very space efficient in same numbers due to smaller size compared to pala.


Imo, the more pala you have, easier it is to replace them, regardless of the lesser villagers because you will be making much better fights compared to lower number amount of paladins. This is the origin of the snowball effect Christ explained. And there is almost no scenario, where you fight multiple times pala vs halbs in a row. You can easily change the location of the attack and eliminate halbs. On a likewise scenario, if you have a solid eco enabling constant paladin production, it should not matter if they push you with halbs, since you should easily be able to switch to anything that crushes an only-halb push.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  Skittle » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:56 pm

Christ tipps might be good for normal tgs, if you have germans as mate you can easily go for less eco. with pedro in your team, executing his collecting-firewood-strat every game you can easily go for zero lumberjacks and get slung wood whenever you need some. arma usually has 20k food +, so you need like 70 carts and can go for 130 palas easy 8)
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  nC_Andorin » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:01 pm

11 don't give away our secrets.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  SMB360 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:29 pm

I quite like the 1 pop for everything aspect of AoC. It may be quaint, but it introduces a different dynamic where, as you transition to late game, you want to make your 200 pop work for you in the strongest way possible. I don't think it's as interesting to have to have fewer units if you want to have stronger ones, a la some slightly newer games mentioned above.

Even if it would lead to fewer memes about elephants fitting on boats.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  go_full_petard » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:47 pm

  24 Sep 2015, 15:29 GMT » SMB 360 wrote:
I quite like the 1 pop for everything aspect of AoC. It may be quaint, but it introduces a different dynamic where, as you transition to late game, you want to make your 200 pop work for you in the strongest way possible. I don't think it's as interesting to have to have fewer units if you want to have stronger ones, a la some slightly newer games mentioned above.

Even if it would lead to fewer memes about elephants fitting on boats.

Well, those other games aren't exactly popular these days, so I guess AoC got it right. But it's certainly a lot easier to balance with the approach of the subsequent games. But if I remember correctly, that French heavy cavalry in AoE3 was also quite overpowered late game.
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Re: Imperial age: tips & secrets

Postby  IvIaximus » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:56 pm

Wel it was OP because once u got ups and cards you could train them in 0 sec(kinda like that cheat in aoc) so if u got eco going u could be 200 pop all time. IT is kinda funny because palas got similar advantage over halbs. They do kill them faster due to low hp of halbs and higher ROF of palas. Then it is easier to replenish palas than it is to replenish halbs, you get 200 pop easier and so you are usually constantly on full pop while halb civ often drop to 160-170 pop hence their pop advantage nulifies.
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